This should be compulsory reading for everyone. There are some people who think NZ Labour invented neoliberalism in the 1980's and still call Labour a neoliberal party. They were followers, on from Reagan and Thatcher and the beginnings you have described. A key factor in neoliberalism is smashing unions ; Muldoon did a pretty good job of that along with wage freezes. Labour didn't in the 1980s and it was their one redeeming feature as far as I was concerned. But you are right ; labels get tossed around. It is very useful to hone in on the Atlas Network because, as you say, it is among us and in our politics. Economics of course is at the heart of it, and understanding all the jargon can be hard. Craig Renney is doing a good job, but I heard Winston take a swipe at him as a candidate for Labour yesterday in the House. I have a couple of good books called "How to argue with an economist" and "Understanding economics" both written by people from the labour movement. I see how often people fall for this "Labour ruined us in the last government" rubbish with the bewildering narratives about surpluses and wasteful spending.
My comment to Maxine below ends with: "The overall issue with this topic also is I find the new buzz word of "neoliberalism" scattered around but find many people don't necessarily appreciate what it means, or how to tease it out from the existent systems, but that's another topic, I guess."
And yes many people on the left who have recently learned about neoliberalism like to throw it around as if everything is neoliberalism and anyone who doesn't immediately end everything we know is a neoliberal.
There's no end to that frustration, and in fact, almost extremely difficult to get people to understand it better.
Re: "Labour ruined us" verbiage, that's spread by the Atlas Network goons like NZI and TPU - and of course National/ACT who are also infiltrated. Lies are easy to tell, fact correction and nuance much harder to relay. These people will nearly always ignore Covid-19 too - just change history!
Anyway, that's why I wrote "I hate Labour, but wait, why" - but corporate media pummelled Labour constantly but are just dying to praise this lot. It's a really difficult situation to balance and get right.
It really is heading that way actually. It may not have been by design initially but it does seem that the top of the neoliberal adherents want a new serfdom below them - and that's 95% of the population, either distracted and/or subjugated.
So bizarre to have so much wealth and power already and yet not be satisfied ... like a humanistic black hole
Thanks so much for this, MT. Thanks also to those who sent links through yesterday. There are still people here who insist Atlas is just a conspiracy theory. Between now and 7 November, we need to publicise parallels between the US situation and the inroads being made here and the consequences for health, housing, education, etc. How can we all contribute to changing the dominant narrative?
For some people the think tank concept will be too opaque for them to grok. What's positive is that Taxpayers Union and NZ Initiative have proudly come out to declare their association with Atlas. And the think tank behind Donald Trump gives some more shape to what people might have a hard time understanding.
Note: When Atlas Network first came to light, David Seymour and Chris Bishop tried to label it a "conspiracy"
After that, they must have decided the evidence was too strong, so changed tack and Rupert Murdoch papers subsequently featured weird articles to the effect of "I'm part of the Atlas Network and we're friendly normal people" etc.
The synchronisation is quite obvious once you start noticing them.
How to change the dialogue? Publications that cover it like ABC here, Newsroom, Dame Ann Salmond, they all do a service in this regard, but it's unlikely we'll see corporate media touch it - given the close links and advertising (corporate) driven business models.
It may be effective to highlight Trump's direction and policies than to talk about Atlas to those who have issues understanding it - or knowing how / why it affects them.
Interestingly yesterday I saw a right wing account claim that climate change was invented by a think tank. If the right are good at anything, it's co-opting realities and flipping the narrative.
In short, publicising it where possible to audiences who are able to understand and process the information - whether on social media or through community channels - is possible but the key is the audience (some just don't get things like this)
The overall issue with this topic also is I find the new buzz word of "neoliberalism" scattered around but find many people don't necessarily appreciate what it means, or how to tease it out from the existent systems, but that's another topic, I guess.
That is a great point MT. Neoliberalism is deliberately vague and opaque, so much so that it has infiltrated the left and right of political parties. It is the operating system politics (and capitalism) run on, unfortunately. There are plenty of academic texts offering opinions, but George does a bloody good job of explaining it too. His article is here: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/15/neoliberalism-ideology-problem-george-monbiot
That's why I think Zac Polanski's (Green Party UK) YouTube video was great:
He was very clear on the link why so many people struggle in today's world (it applies to all western countries, not just UK). All the advances of the economy go to the top, mainly the uber-rich.
Decades of economic growth, yet most people live pay check to pay check, while the uber-rich increased their wealth by trillions.
As you say MT " If the right are good at anything, it's co-opting realities and flipping the narrative." But that's what we do too, except our eloquence is invisible on Tik Tok etc. Maybe get a team from readers to create a few Tik Tok virals. Sure I'd help, just not with money - that's what they use
So here it comes here comes the niiight - Moody Blues? Sorry but I have to revert to let's come at them out of left field and vote for ANZAC-UNITY on November 7. Only for those of us who intend to not bother voting.. It would be ghastly to get elected as Marilyn W found out in the Muldoon days
Why siphon votes in such a critical time though? I know you support the movement, and I support freedom of political choice, and therein your choice, but it's a question I have at such a critical time - and remember Aussie has to want it more. Not NZ alone.
The so called ANZAC-Unity Party is apolitical and aimed at those who will not vote. I would guess that those on the nasty side are already committed to tick blue come what may. Unless those on the side of humanity come up with something novel they . will lose. Sometimes disasters can effect voters and possibly the events in the BOP, which is now a running sore, will see a swing away from National but not ACT or NZF.
The ANZAC-UNITY Party is only likely to get 2 votes, assuming your support, so no impact on Labour or Greens. Now, if one of them said they'd explore the idea of reunification then we can relax and simply make sure they do explore.
Yes I agree MT most or many people would not know what "neoliberalism" means and anyway the word sounds so benign and innocuous. It's a complete misnomer.
Like Cindy, I knew nothing about Atlas Network until I read this piece, MT, and as she did, I thank you for bringing it to my attention. I am not a conspiracy theorist but I admit I have to work very hard to maintain that stance in the face of actions by some people and organisations. One of the reasons I think organisations like Atlas Network is not a grand conspiracy is that, by and large, the founders of them do not care that their actions might adversely affect many people. Of course, I might be wrong!
But consider: at any given time, for a short period, the supply of money in an economy is fixed. Therefore, if someone makes a "killing" others have to make a loss. It doesn't matter how long the period is. These days, with computer programs "running" stock sales and transfers, it could be merely microseconds. Let me give you an example. In the early 1970s an Australian mining company, Tasminex, released a report which suggested that the company had discovered nickel at 10 minutes to 5 pm on a Friday, just before the eastern Stock exchanges closed. This was a time when nickel was a "big" name in mining ventures in Australia. Naturally, the international exchanges on which Tasminex was registered went wild and the shares rose from just cents to around $5. At 9 am on the following Monday, Tasminex released a note saying that there had been a mistake in the geological assessment of the area. Needless to say the shares re-established at just a few cents. It was claimed that a senior person in the Tasminex hierarchy made several million dollars in a "short-sell" over the weekend. The lesson is that a few people made a "killing" from the losses incurred by many "small" investors (and institutional investors such as pension funds). Outrage at the obvious moral implications resulted in substantial changes to the exchange and security laws and rules in Australia. Before that, short-selling was not illegal in Australia. Suffice it to say that those who made fortunes from the episode did so by completely ignoring the morality of the event. And this is my point. They DID NOT CARE!
The screams coming out of California by the ultra-rich at the proposal by the UFW Union to tax multi-billionaires is an example of the amoral attitude of that class/group (?). As far as they are concerned, the dollars that could be raised by taxing them are equivalent to only a few cents impost on each of the millions of other taxpayers and therefore will not "hurt" them. The moral implication is of no consequence.
We have seen the same attitude applied here, where our present Minister of Finance chose to borrow to shore up her first budget in which she gifted landlords and tobacco companies significant tax breaks. Borrowings which will cost ordinary taxpayers for years to come. But does the present Government care?
https://youtu.be/gR4eSEetKP0?si=Mu4gxWouynIMoMjf This was posted on YouTube just before Christmas by George Monbiot. If only those who vote for National, Act or NZ First would watch it! Wake up to what they are actually voting for...it's certainly not for the people of Aotearoa New Zealand.
Who can forget Whena Owen's embarrassing client journalism on "both sides-ing" Q+A, where she interviewed Jenny Gibbs who told her and all the Q+A viewers that Atlas Network was just a philanthropic organisation, spreading freedom and democracy.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7Ra5vzpOjA
Q&A, as much as many of us might appreciate Tame at times, is a shill channel.
I remember them having Jamie Beaton on one Sunday with him criticising the NCEA, and the very next day Erica Stanford did a "surprise" announcement about canning it.
Then Jamie Beaton, who turns out to be John Key's business partner and who has sitting National MPs like Nancy Lu to help him advertise, started selling "Post NCEA" courses with obvious insider takes.
An absolute joke and yes this is the first time I've sworn on Substack, but that's how low and cheap our media is.
Yep, shill is more than fair MT. Kerry O’Brian reminds us of the critical importance of genuine journalism, not the shit we’re fed by most media outlets today. The New Zealand media is failing miserably in holding corruption, collusion, and malfeasance in government and in society to account. This clip is worth a watch. https://youtu.be/s--oBPdngik?si=hj_B9_amuWSwdx9B
Labels. It’s so hard to pin a name on the Nastys in NZ who support the Arts (for a tax deduction) and buy influence and favours. It used to be the landed aristos, then the beer barons and latterly the newspaper magnate but since about C19 the electronic disseminators like Musk/Trump and today; the consumate copy cat embassy party-rat donation-funded Peters posting that NZ will follow the USA out of the World Health Organisation.
IMHO just as it is impossible to impart the message to voters from a 1930s soap box these days so it is impossible for us keen followers of MT to make a dent in the armour plated juggernaut of lies our local Nastys promulgate. Twenty percent of voters and more (Kiwi) in Australia are either going to vote for a label like New Zealand First or National or simply not bother.
I don't disagree to be honest, Winston. There's not enough facts or context to convince large swathes of people and in lieu of corporate media being on board, it'll be impossible to cut through the money that funds the right wing - whether media, politicians or "think tanks"
The Atlas Network and its affiliates (such as The NZ Initiative and the Taxpayers Union) in New Zealand are one of the biggest threats to our way of life as we know it and democracy in this country. What is really concerning is that the current Coalition Government has been well and truly captured by this idealogy.
Disinformation and misinformation are hallmarks of how this network operates. Combined with media stacked with Atlas/neoliberal idealogues, it can be difficult to distinguish between fact and fiction. Added to that, a sizeable proportion of Kiwis seem blindly unaware, distracted, disinterested or simply don't care for political manouvres or indepth analysis of the Atlas Network or its PR strategies.
The huge financial backing from wealthy donors that is available from overseas sources to fight against opposing views is truly staggering. It really is a class war favouring corporates and wealthy individuals above others, which is becoming well and truly entrenched in New Zealand and indeed around the world.
However mobilising significant people power may just be able to overcome this onslaught, but it won't be easy.
🙋 It is thanks to this site MT that I learned about the Atlas network & it's grip on coalition politicians & their funders/lobbyists in Aotearoa, and the others who have also included references since. It is pretty hard to explain to those who don't pay attention without sounding like a conspiracy theorist, but sadly & obviously conspiracies DO exists/have existed/will exist whether we believe in them or not 🤷 The fact that the evidence is long-standing & internationally discussed/shared by sane sensible people, is reason enough to at least accept the possibility Seymour et al are acting in the interests of people other than their local constituents, or Aotearoa as a nation.
It is not "crazy" to believe it is POSSIBLE, & to do independent research from sources that have shown they can be trusted - unfortunately we saw with COVID that who/what the definition of "trusted" is can be problematic ⁉️ Those who DON'T want to believe can these days find sources who were once considered above reproach now supporting/espousing obvious dis/misinformation that either they truly believe, or have a financial or power incentive to pretend to believe (Trump's Republican regime being a perfect example)
💪 But that doesn't mean we don't try within our sphere of influence - what starts out sounding "crazy" the first time often alerts good people to noticing things they hadn't (or wouldn't have) before - this discussion right here (and the many we have had before) is evidence of that 🤗
(and seems outlets in Australia are doing good work on this to spread the load ✔️)
This should be compulsory reading for everyone. There are some people who think NZ Labour invented neoliberalism in the 1980's and still call Labour a neoliberal party. They were followers, on from Reagan and Thatcher and the beginnings you have described. A key factor in neoliberalism is smashing unions ; Muldoon did a pretty good job of that along with wage freezes. Labour didn't in the 1980s and it was their one redeeming feature as far as I was concerned. But you are right ; labels get tossed around. It is very useful to hone in on the Atlas Network because, as you say, it is among us and in our politics. Economics of course is at the heart of it, and understanding all the jargon can be hard. Craig Renney is doing a good job, but I heard Winston take a swipe at him as a candidate for Labour yesterday in the House. I have a couple of good books called "How to argue with an economist" and "Understanding economics" both written by people from the labour movement. I see how often people fall for this "Labour ruined us in the last government" rubbish with the bewildering narratives about surpluses and wasteful spending.
My comment to Maxine below ends with: "The overall issue with this topic also is I find the new buzz word of "neoliberalism" scattered around but find many people don't necessarily appreciate what it means, or how to tease it out from the existent systems, but that's another topic, I guess."
And yes many people on the left who have recently learned about neoliberalism like to throw it around as if everything is neoliberalism and anyone who doesn't immediately end everything we know is a neoliberal.
There's no end to that frustration, and in fact, almost extremely difficult to get people to understand it better.
Re: "Labour ruined us" verbiage, that's spread by the Atlas Network goons like NZI and TPU - and of course National/ACT who are also infiltrated. Lies are easy to tell, fact correction and nuance much harder to relay. These people will nearly always ignore Covid-19 too - just change history!
Anyway, that's why I wrote "I hate Labour, but wait, why" - but corporate media pummelled Labour constantly but are just dying to praise this lot. It's a really difficult situation to balance and get right.
Money is power in this world so far.
And so is knowledge. Unfortunately, that’s missing in the everyday voter.
Maybe life is now deliberately designed this way:
- Forcing people / households to have multiple jobs
- Make childcare unaffordable, so people have little time to educate themselves
- Cover the news with meaningless drivel or outright lies (see Atlas network and the uber-rich ruling class running the "show")
- Make education unaffordable or unavailable (closing of libraries and adult education classes)
- Destruction of Unions
Up-coming steps (specially support from the "freedom parties" like ACT):
- Limiting freedom of speech
- Limiting topics you're allowed to demonstrate / strike on
- Public crack-down of opponents
- Reducing your property rights and access to services, like banks
It really is heading that way actually. It may not have been by design initially but it does seem that the top of the neoliberal adherents want a new serfdom below them - and that's 95% of the population, either distracted and/or subjugated.
So bizarre to have so much wealth and power already and yet not be satisfied ... like a humanistic black hole
Yes and just re-reading that post. It is brilliant. Possibly I didn't see it before.
All good. I do produce far too much content!
I wouldn't want to read it all :-)
Cheers, Darien.
Thanks so much for this, MT. Thanks also to those who sent links through yesterday. There are still people here who insist Atlas is just a conspiracy theory. Between now and 7 November, we need to publicise parallels between the US situation and the inroads being made here and the consequences for health, housing, education, etc. How can we all contribute to changing the dominant narrative?
For some people the think tank concept will be too opaque for them to grok. What's positive is that Taxpayers Union and NZ Initiative have proudly come out to declare their association with Atlas. And the think tank behind Donald Trump gives some more shape to what people might have a hard time understanding.
Note: When Atlas Network first came to light, David Seymour and Chris Bishop tried to label it a "conspiracy"
After that, they must have decided the evidence was too strong, so changed tack and Rupert Murdoch papers subsequently featured weird articles to the effect of "I'm part of the Atlas Network and we're friendly normal people" etc.
The synchronisation is quite obvious once you start noticing them.
How to change the dialogue? Publications that cover it like ABC here, Newsroom, Dame Ann Salmond, they all do a service in this regard, but it's unlikely we'll see corporate media touch it - given the close links and advertising (corporate) driven business models.
It may be effective to highlight Trump's direction and policies than to talk about Atlas to those who have issues understanding it - or knowing how / why it affects them.
Interestingly yesterday I saw a right wing account claim that climate change was invented by a think tank. If the right are good at anything, it's co-opting realities and flipping the narrative.
In short, publicising it where possible to audiences who are able to understand and process the information - whether on social media or through community channels - is possible but the key is the audience (some just don't get things like this)
The overall issue with this topic also is I find the new buzz word of "neoliberalism" scattered around but find many people don't necessarily appreciate what it means, or how to tease it out from the existent systems, but that's another topic, I guess.
That is a great point MT. Neoliberalism is deliberately vague and opaque, so much so that it has infiltrated the left and right of political parties. It is the operating system politics (and capitalism) run on, unfortunately. There are plenty of academic texts offering opinions, but George does a bloody good job of explaining it too. His article is here: https://www.theguardian.com/books/2016/apr/15/neoliberalism-ideology-problem-george-monbiot
That's why I think Zac Polanski's (Green Party UK) YouTube video was great:
He was very clear on the link why so many people struggle in today's world (it applies to all western countries, not just UK). All the advances of the economy go to the top, mainly the uber-rich.
Decades of economic growth, yet most people live pay check to pay check, while the uber-rich increased their wealth by trillions.
Here a link of a link to the video: https://substack.com/@deaglanomulrooney/note/c-203832319?r=4xpfnq&utm_source=notes-share-action&utm_medium=web
Thanks Juergen
As you say MT " If the right are good at anything, it's co-opting realities and flipping the narrative." But that's what we do too, except our eloquence is invisible on Tik Tok etc. Maybe get a team from readers to create a few Tik Tok virals. Sure I'd help, just not with money - that's what they use
Yes the Tik Toks and such are much more popular and boostable. I do know.
It's easier to watch or listen than read and attention spans are short.
Incidentally though: https://www.reddit.com/r/nzpolitics/comments/1qonx60/tik_tok_reportedly_censoring_posts_criticising/
Cripes .
So here it comes here comes the niiight - Moody Blues? Sorry but I have to revert to let's come at them out of left field and vote for ANZAC-UNITY on November 7. Only for those of us who intend to not bother voting.. It would be ghastly to get elected as Marilyn W found out in the Muldoon days
Why siphon votes in such a critical time though? I know you support the movement, and I support freedom of political choice, and therein your choice, but it's a question I have at such a critical time - and remember Aussie has to want it more. Not NZ alone.
The so called ANZAC-Unity Party is apolitical and aimed at those who will not vote. I would guess that those on the nasty side are already committed to tick blue come what may. Unless those on the side of humanity come up with something novel they . will lose. Sometimes disasters can effect voters and possibly the events in the BOP, which is now a running sore, will see a swing away from National but not ACT or NZF.
The ANZAC-UNITY Party is only likely to get 2 votes, assuming your support, so no impact on Labour or Greens. Now, if one of them said they'd explore the idea of reunification then we can relax and simply make sure they do explore.
Yes I agree MT most or many people would not know what "neoliberalism" means and anyway the word sounds so benign and innocuous. It's a complete misnomer.
Like Cindy, I knew nothing about Atlas Network until I read this piece, MT, and as she did, I thank you for bringing it to my attention. I am not a conspiracy theorist but I admit I have to work very hard to maintain that stance in the face of actions by some people and organisations. One of the reasons I think organisations like Atlas Network is not a grand conspiracy is that, by and large, the founders of them do not care that their actions might adversely affect many people. Of course, I might be wrong!
But consider: at any given time, for a short period, the supply of money in an economy is fixed. Therefore, if someone makes a "killing" others have to make a loss. It doesn't matter how long the period is. These days, with computer programs "running" stock sales and transfers, it could be merely microseconds. Let me give you an example. In the early 1970s an Australian mining company, Tasminex, released a report which suggested that the company had discovered nickel at 10 minutes to 5 pm on a Friday, just before the eastern Stock exchanges closed. This was a time when nickel was a "big" name in mining ventures in Australia. Naturally, the international exchanges on which Tasminex was registered went wild and the shares rose from just cents to around $5. At 9 am on the following Monday, Tasminex released a note saying that there had been a mistake in the geological assessment of the area. Needless to say the shares re-established at just a few cents. It was claimed that a senior person in the Tasminex hierarchy made several million dollars in a "short-sell" over the weekend. The lesson is that a few people made a "killing" from the losses incurred by many "small" investors (and institutional investors such as pension funds). Outrage at the obvious moral implications resulted in substantial changes to the exchange and security laws and rules in Australia. Before that, short-selling was not illegal in Australia. Suffice it to say that those who made fortunes from the episode did so by completely ignoring the morality of the event. And this is my point. They DID NOT CARE!
The screams coming out of California by the ultra-rich at the proposal by the UFW Union to tax multi-billionaires is an example of the amoral attitude of that class/group (?). As far as they are concerned, the dollars that could be raised by taxing them are equivalent to only a few cents impost on each of the millions of other taxpayers and therefore will not "hurt" them. The moral implication is of no consequence.
We have seen the same attitude applied here, where our present Minister of Finance chose to borrow to shore up her first budget in which she gifted landlords and tobacco companies significant tax breaks. Borrowings which will cost ordinary taxpayers for years to come. But does the present Government care?
Well said Gary, well said.
I second MT Gary, well said.
https://youtu.be/gR4eSEetKP0?si=Mu4gxWouynIMoMjf This was posted on YouTube just before Christmas by George Monbiot. If only those who vote for National, Act or NZ First would watch it! Wake up to what they are actually voting for...it's certainly not for the people of Aotearoa New Zealand.
Who can forget Whena Owen's embarrassing client journalism on "both sides-ing" Q+A, where she interviewed Jenny Gibbs who told her and all the Q+A viewers that Atlas Network was just a philanthropic organisation, spreading freedom and democracy.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g7Ra5vzpOjA
For fuck's sake, pardon my French.
Q&A, as much as many of us might appreciate Tame at times, is a shill channel.
I remember them having Jamie Beaton on one Sunday with him criticising the NCEA, and the very next day Erica Stanford did a "surprise" announcement about canning it.
Then Jamie Beaton, who turns out to be John Key's business partner and who has sitting National MPs like Nancy Lu to help him advertise, started selling "Post NCEA" courses with obvious insider takes.
An absolute joke and yes this is the first time I've sworn on Substack, but that's how low and cheap our media is.
Yep, shill is more than fair MT. Kerry O’Brian reminds us of the critical importance of genuine journalism, not the shit we’re fed by most media outlets today. The New Zealand media is failing miserably in holding corruption, collusion, and malfeasance in government and in society to account. This clip is worth a watch. https://youtu.be/s--oBPdngik?si=hj_B9_amuWSwdx9B
Labels. It’s so hard to pin a name on the Nastys in NZ who support the Arts (for a tax deduction) and buy influence and favours. It used to be the landed aristos, then the beer barons and latterly the newspaper magnate but since about C19 the electronic disseminators like Musk/Trump and today; the consumate copy cat embassy party-rat donation-funded Peters posting that NZ will follow the USA out of the World Health Organisation.
IMHO just as it is impossible to impart the message to voters from a 1930s soap box these days so it is impossible for us keen followers of MT to make a dent in the armour plated juggernaut of lies our local Nastys promulgate. Twenty percent of voters and more (Kiwi) in Australia are either going to vote for a label like New Zealand First or National or simply not bother.
Joke: What does a dinky-die Aussie call a label?
I don't disagree to be honest, Winston. There's not enough facts or context to convince large swathes of people and in lieu of corporate media being on board, it'll be impossible to cut through the money that funds the right wing - whether media, politicians or "think tanks"
What's the answer to the joke?
The Atlas Network and its affiliates (such as The NZ Initiative and the Taxpayers Union) in New Zealand are one of the biggest threats to our way of life as we know it and democracy in this country. What is really concerning is that the current Coalition Government has been well and truly captured by this idealogy.
Disinformation and misinformation are hallmarks of how this network operates. Combined with media stacked with Atlas/neoliberal idealogues, it can be difficult to distinguish between fact and fiction. Added to that, a sizeable proportion of Kiwis seem blindly unaware, distracted, disinterested or simply don't care for political manouvres or indepth analysis of the Atlas Network or its PR strategies.
The huge financial backing from wealthy donors that is available from overseas sources to fight against opposing views is truly staggering. It really is a class war favouring corporates and wealthy individuals above others, which is becoming well and truly entrenched in New Zealand and indeed around the world.
However mobilising significant people power may just be able to overcome this onslaught, but it won't be easy.
🙋 It is thanks to this site MT that I learned about the Atlas network & it's grip on coalition politicians & their funders/lobbyists in Aotearoa, and the others who have also included references since. It is pretty hard to explain to those who don't pay attention without sounding like a conspiracy theorist, but sadly & obviously conspiracies DO exists/have existed/will exist whether we believe in them or not 🤷 The fact that the evidence is long-standing & internationally discussed/shared by sane sensible people, is reason enough to at least accept the possibility Seymour et al are acting in the interests of people other than their local constituents, or Aotearoa as a nation.
It is not "crazy" to believe it is POSSIBLE, & to do independent research from sources that have shown they can be trusted - unfortunately we saw with COVID that who/what the definition of "trusted" is can be problematic ⁉️ Those who DON'T want to believe can these days find sources who were once considered above reproach now supporting/espousing obvious dis/misinformation that either they truly believe, or have a financial or power incentive to pretend to believe (Trump's Republican regime being a perfect example)
💪 But that doesn't mean we don't try within our sphere of influence - what starts out sounding "crazy" the first time often alerts good people to noticing things they hadn't (or wouldn't have) before - this discussion right here (and the many we have had before) is evidence of that 🤗
(and seems outlets in Australia are doing good work on this to spread the load ✔️)
Well said and articulated. Many thanks Cindy
Say label out loud with an Aussie accent