C Hipkins' speech was passionate, detailed and on point. But it must have been too good. C Bishop thought he would cunningly blow the opposition out of the water with his move of apparent largesse to defer the debate - even though this government chose today, the day before its budget, for the debate and refused any compromises on the punishment of TPM MPs beforehand. C Hipkins thinking quickly on his feet pointed out that such a deferral could still mean that TPM might not be able to exercise its democratic vote on the budget if the timing of a penalty after the deferred debate date removed those MPs from parliament for the relevant dates. C Bishop once again revealed this game-playing, double-speaking government's arrogance and contempt for democracy.
I was disgusted that Gerry didn’t put his foot down, there was absolutely no basis for muffling the debate. I expect the government a stalling to make absolutely certain that Debbie, Rawiri and Hana will be on suspension when the Regulatory Standards Bill comes up.
Me too. He had shown signs of being better on this one (which was unusual to begin with) then flipped and let this happen today. So Tui saying "not unexpected" obviously and smartly called it on what might happen. Well observed Tui!
He’s his father’s son - John was ex-journalist who swerved extremely right, one of the founders of TaxPayersUnion. I hate his smug face when he thinks he is being really clever
It was totally prearranged. You only had to see the response Nicolalala made when he announced it - fully aware it was coming. By waiting for Chippy to conclude, they avoided the criticism of muzzling the other major party in the room.
I saw a report that Labour and National were looking at a 'behind the bikesheds' deal over the weekend to reduce the proposed suspensions to something like Chris Hipkins moved today. But Luxon, speaking from the post-Cabinet podium of spin on Monday, made a 'captains call' which nixed any negotiations. It was also reported Luxon even said the caucus was unanimous - but it wasn't discussed in Caucus until this morning.
Wish I could find the news article - but I'm short on time this afternoon.
I'd prefer a phoenix, or better still a dragon. It's way past time Labour showed some bloody strength rather than the constant stream of soft weasel words. We need the Oppo to show some mongrel on our behalf.
🤷 I have seen a lot of "bloody strength" from Labour MP's - including Chris Hipkins. However, there is the FACT that they are out-voted where it counts in Parliament, and muffled by main-stream-media so that they APPEAR to be weak because they aren't given quality air tme. AND if I WANTED "mongrel" I would vote ACT or NZ1st ⁉️
Thank God for some sanity Cindy. I spent the morning arguing against left wing voters who insisted Hipkins and Labour had betrayed them. Nothing worse than being the leader of a center to left party - it would be hell.
Parjmeet Parmar seems to have dedicated a significant amount of her political endeavour over the years to antagonising Maori and Pasifika. Is this playing to a certain sentiment that exists within the Indian community in NZ, or is it that she is personally willing to 'go the extra mile' on behalf of her political masters while hiding behind her own 'brown-ness' as a defence against accusations of racism- saying things that no white person would dare to?
Brown-on-brown racism is absolutely rife within the UK conservative party, as far as I can see for exactly this reason.
Apparently she used to be a National MP who lost her seat and focused on science and technology. Nowadays, she helps ACT with race baiting and appears to do it with a measure of pride (I saw her at the Privileges Committee hearing for Labour MP Peeni Henare over the haka, and wondered who the haughty, arrogant woman was)
I hear you, but at the same time, Peters is an absolute stickler for tradition and protocol- as seen by his recall of Phil Goff from his H.C. post in London (a decision I agree with btw, for all the same reasons given by experts in the field and Peters himself) I'm surprised for that reason that the NZF contingent on the privileges committee allowed this excessive disciplinary recommendation to go forward (though I appreciate that Peters' 'stuffiness' over these Tikanga protests inside parliament points in the opposite direction) .
I would thus be unsurprised if NZF changes it's position after the suspension debate- I guess it depends how they read the mood of the country-at-large.
Mohan Dutta on Twitter ( @mjdutt ) has identified her as Hindutva - a right-wing ethno-nationalist political ideology that is strongly pro-Hindu and staunchly anti-Muslim.
He says of Parmar:
"What happens when you have the Hindutva agenda take over NZ politics. All the imprints of anti Indigenous hate that you see in Hindutva’s caste ecosystem.... That is precisely how upper caste Indians treat adivasis, India’s indigenous people."
We are not well-versed in the ideologies and prejudices brought here from other countries, but they're here, they're in our politics, and they're dog-whistling to their communities.
I would argue that ACT's platform is only *tactically* racist for the purpose of garnering essential votes from a section of NZ society that places 'sticking it to the bloody Maori's' as more important than realising their own class-interest. One needs to be VERY rich to actually have ACT's ultra-Neolib platform as a de-facto class interest. Another similar tactical ploy is the fireams amendments. The bait is regaining the right to own a certain type of firearm (semi-auto), which, to be honest, isn't very popular anyway. The switch is that, if they find themselves in a strong enough position, they will sell off the public land where hunters hunt- largely open access & free of charge at present.
ACT are classist rather than racist and are thus attractive to wealthy people of all races.
Thx. I suspected something like this might be at play. In fact my first comment on the matter speculated something similar, but I immediately deleted it as un-evidenced.
⁉️ I heard Chippy say that the Budget DEBATE is one of 2 occasions where the Opposition can call a vote of no confidence ⁉️ Of course, it WOULD take MP's crossing the floor for a vote to succeed 🤷
But all the votes were recorded already? what was disrupted? Intimidated who? David Seymour? He was probs grinning like a Chesire cat at the thought of the racism being stoked. And let's remember Chippie, you might say the sanction is not for a haka, but Judith C described their behaviour as 'uncivilised'
Collins is just politicising it - and as Hipkins notes, they broke Parliamentary rules and advice in handing out a penalty not seen since the 1800s ie. suspending for more than 3 days.
And Speaker Brownlee protesteth too much when he volunteered the information that he had no forewarning of Bishop's bumbling motion. The Speaker had to remind the bungler how to word it correctly. Effectively Brownlee went back on his word to grant a full debate.
🤷 I guess I am not surprised that the "leader of the house" pulled a 🐔🐔🐔 move when a) he heard Chris Hipkins deliver a factual coherent smack-down of the recommended "punishment" and b) they saw the size of the protest building outside ⁉️ Strategy wise if you were planning on deferring the debate, wouldn't you do it BEFORE Chippy had his uninterrupted opportunity 🤔
Thanks for the clip Tui. He showed a bit of fire in this one but not quite enough to be on point for me. I have felt quite disappointed with him for a while and am going to have to see their actual policies before I can feel anything more positive about Labour. If they can't distance themselves well from the era of neoliberalism I can't in full conscience trust them again. Labour lost what was left of goodwill from me when they pushed through health system restructure during covid. They lost my vote the election prior to that though because I felt the Greens were the ones that pushed them for better social policies that happened. I don't dislike Hipkins as a person and felt the same way about Jacinda.
I just feel they need to go more centre left. People argue they are that already, but when you're happy to keep playing with neoliberalism in actions and leaving behind the working class - that is right wing. He has hinted that the party has left neoliberal ideas behind for a while now. But being kinder than national doesn't mean your left wing. He needs to be bolder in efforts of policy change in my view - so I am left in a wait and see mode. I am so glad I voted for Te Pati Maori in the last election. I was worried the uber right bloc would get in. Lack of Tax reform from Labour lost a lot of people. I still want to see a Labour, Greens and Te Pati Maori Govt in power at the next election. I can only hope that many who voted this lot in now are feeling they didn't want what this Govt has been.
My feeling is that traditional Labour voters who are disillusioned with the current iteration will probably not vote rather than vote Green or TPM. And that will lead us to another term of the wreckers and haters.
Honestly that is a worry too. I truly can't get a feel for what many are thinking with all the echo bubbles everywhere. But I hear from people in general how unhappy they are with the current govt but many of these folks would have voted Labour or further left. I know of a few traditional Labour voters who voted for ACT but I know these folks bought him at face value talking point than what's underneath that nasty piece of work. I kinda feel like Tui has a good feel for what's happening in some other echo chambers.
C Hipkins' speech was passionate, detailed and on point. But it must have been too good. C Bishop thought he would cunningly blow the opposition out of the water with his move of apparent largesse to defer the debate - even though this government chose today, the day before its budget, for the debate and refused any compromises on the punishment of TPM MPs beforehand. C Hipkins thinking quickly on his feet pointed out that such a deferral could still mean that TPM might not be able to exercise its democratic vote on the budget if the timing of a penalty after the deferred debate date removed those MPs from parliament for the relevant dates. C Bishop once again revealed this game-playing, double-speaking government's arrogance and contempt for democracy.
What a dog of a trick from Bishop. No honour in his bones.
John - I think he’s one of the most nefarious politicians on their whole bench, and that’s saying a lot.
I was disgusted that Gerry didn’t put his foot down, there was absolutely no basis for muffling the debate. I expect the government a stalling to make absolutely certain that Debbie, Rawiri and Hana will be on suspension when the Regulatory Standards Bill comes up.
Brownlee has been unashamedly partisan since Day 1 - today was a disgrace, but not unexpected.
Brownlee was the MP for old money didn’t expect anything else , won’t get invited anywhere to lunch otherwise
Me too. He had shown signs of being better on this one (which was unusual to begin with) then flipped and let this happen today. So Tui saying "not unexpected" obviously and smartly called it on what might happen. Well observed Tui!
Exactly
🤬 He hasn't redeemed himself from his abysmal performance after the Christchurch EQs - although "local" I had no opinion of him prior, but... ⁉️🤷💩
He’s his father’s son - John was ex-journalist who swerved extremely right, one of the founders of TaxPayersUnion. I hate his smug face when he thinks he is being really clever
It was totally prearranged. You only had to see the response Nicolalala made when he announced it - fully aware it was coming. By waiting for Chippy to conclude, they avoided the criticism of muzzling the other major party in the room.
So so true.
They actually learned Labour's arguments, and this will give them 2 weeks for their PR team and speechwriters to come back at it.
I saw a report that Labour and National were looking at a 'behind the bikesheds' deal over the weekend to reduce the proposed suspensions to something like Chris Hipkins moved today. But Luxon, speaking from the post-Cabinet podium of spin on Monday, made a 'captains call' which nixed any negotiations. It was also reported Luxon even said the caucus was unanimous - but it wasn't discussed in Caucus until this morning.
Wish I could find the news article - but I'm short on time this afternoon.
Would be good to know if true or not at some point. Cheers.
Mōrena MT, it was on Stuff's live feed. This link should take you straight to it:
https://www.tickaroo.com/e/FVG4mBqiqMcuew7y
Many thanks Paul!
👍👏 Love this community! Sharing & caring about our democracy in these fraught times - "knowledge is power" 💪
Good to see Chris Hipkins on his feet and a bit fiery about something. May a decent opposition emerge like a butterfly.
I'd prefer a phoenix, or better still a dragon. It's way past time Labour showed some bloody strength rather than the constant stream of soft weasel words. We need the Oppo to show some mongrel on our behalf.
I want to write on this topic at some point - the expectations
🤷 I have seen a lot of "bloody strength" from Labour MP's - including Chris Hipkins. However, there is the FACT that they are out-voted where it counts in Parliament, and muffled by main-stream-media so that they APPEAR to be weak because they aren't given quality air tme. AND if I WANTED "mongrel" I would vote ACT or NZ1st ⁉️
Thank God for some sanity Cindy. I spent the morning arguing against left wing voters who insisted Hipkins and Labour had betrayed them. Nothing worse than being the leader of a center to left party - it would be hell.
I agree. Less butterfly, more mongrel.
See Cindy's comment above :-)
No surprise
Parjmeet Parmar seems to have dedicated a significant amount of her political endeavour over the years to antagonising Maori and Pasifika. Is this playing to a certain sentiment that exists within the Indian community in NZ, or is it that she is personally willing to 'go the extra mile' on behalf of her political masters while hiding behind her own 'brown-ness' as a defence against accusations of racism- saying things that no white person would dare to?
Brown-on-brown racism is absolutely rife within the UK conservative party, as far as I can see for exactly this reason.
Apparently she used to be a National MP who lost her seat and focused on science and technology. Nowadays, she helps ACT with race baiting and appears to do it with a measure of pride (I saw her at the Privileges Committee hearing for Labour MP Peeni Henare over the haka, and wondered who the haughty, arrogant woman was)
I wonder the same, more generally about Winston Peter's. I know old white racists who love Peter's cause he gives them moral permission to bash Maori.
I hear you, but at the same time, Peters is an absolute stickler for tradition and protocol- as seen by his recall of Phil Goff from his H.C. post in London (a decision I agree with btw, for all the same reasons given by experts in the field and Peters himself) I'm surprised for that reason that the NZF contingent on the privileges committee allowed this excessive disciplinary recommendation to go forward (though I appreciate that Peters' 'stuffiness' over these Tikanga protests inside parliament points in the opposite direction) .
I would thus be unsurprised if NZF changes it's position after the suspension debate- I guess it depends how they read the mood of the country-at-large.
Bit of both.
Mohan Dutta on Twitter ( @mjdutt ) has identified her as Hindutva - a right-wing ethno-nationalist political ideology that is strongly pro-Hindu and staunchly anti-Muslim.
He says of Parmar:
"What happens when you have the Hindutva agenda take over NZ politics. All the imprints of anti Indigenous hate that you see in Hindutva’s caste ecosystem.... That is precisely how upper caste Indians treat adivasis, India’s indigenous people."
We are not well-versed in the ideologies and prejudices brought here from other countries, but they're here, they're in our politics, and they're dog-whistling to their communities.
They would be nothing with ACT's platform.
I would argue that ACT's platform is only *tactically* racist for the purpose of garnering essential votes from a section of NZ society that places 'sticking it to the bloody Maori's' as more important than realising their own class-interest. One needs to be VERY rich to actually have ACT's ultra-Neolib platform as a de-facto class interest. Another similar tactical ploy is the fireams amendments. The bait is regaining the right to own a certain type of firearm (semi-auto), which, to be honest, isn't very popular anyway. The switch is that, if they find themselves in a strong enough position, they will sell off the public land where hunters hunt- largely open access & free of charge at present.
ACT are classist rather than racist and are thus attractive to wealthy people of all races.
Thx. I suspected something like this might be at play. In fact my first comment on the matter speculated something similar, but I immediately deleted it as un-evidenced.
Yup, fair observation
Are we getting to a point where we can have a vote of no confidence in this appalling government?
I don't believe our Parliamentary system allows for it, without MPs crossing the floor.
⁉️ I heard Chippy say that the Budget DEBATE is one of 2 occasions where the Opposition can call a vote of no confidence ⁉️ Of course, it WOULD take MP's crossing the floor for a vote to succeed 🤷
Yes - but from what I’ve seen of government MPs, they are all very strong in their convictions, those of their party, and loyal to their side.
But all the votes were recorded already? what was disrupted? Intimidated who? David Seymour? He was probs grinning like a Chesire cat at the thought of the racism being stoked. And let's remember Chippie, you might say the sanction is not for a haka, but Judith C described their behaviour as 'uncivilised'
Officially leaving your space is disallowed - that's why Peeni Henare got in trouble: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCqyJqilP7U
Collins is just politicising it - and as Hipkins notes, they broke Parliamentary rules and advice in handing out a penalty not seen since the 1800s ie. suspending for more than 3 days.
And Speaker Brownlee protesteth too much when he volunteered the information that he had no forewarning of Bishop's bumbling motion. The Speaker had to remind the bungler how to word it correctly. Effectively Brownlee went back on his word to grant a full debate.
I just knew the optimism about Brownlee was unfounded.
He has to eat rats if he wants to become Sir Gerald Brownlee NZ High Commissioner to London
Fair
Judith Collins objects to allegations of racism? I'm so 😠
🤷 I guess I am not surprised that the "leader of the house" pulled a 🐔🐔🐔 move when a) he heard Chris Hipkins deliver a factual coherent smack-down of the recommended "punishment" and b) they saw the size of the protest building outside ⁉️ Strategy wise if you were planning on deferring the debate, wouldn't you do it BEFORE Chippy had his uninterrupted opportunity 🤔
It gives them time now for them to spin it back. It's disgusting. No doubt their speechwriters were called to action immediately after Cindy!
My word Chippy, one of your best yet! More of this ballsy assertiveness is really what’s required.. honest, strong, calling out the BS. Bravo 🙌🏻
Thanks for the clip Tui. He showed a bit of fire in this one but not quite enough to be on point for me. I have felt quite disappointed with him for a while and am going to have to see their actual policies before I can feel anything more positive about Labour. If they can't distance themselves well from the era of neoliberalism I can't in full conscience trust them again. Labour lost what was left of goodwill from me when they pushed through health system restructure during covid. They lost my vote the election prior to that though because I felt the Greens were the ones that pushed them for better social policies that happened. I don't dislike Hipkins as a person and felt the same way about Jacinda.
I just feel they need to go more centre left. People argue they are that already, but when you're happy to keep playing with neoliberalism in actions and leaving behind the working class - that is right wing. He has hinted that the party has left neoliberal ideas behind for a while now. But being kinder than national doesn't mean your left wing. He needs to be bolder in efforts of policy change in my view - so I am left in a wait and see mode. I am so glad I voted for Te Pati Maori in the last election. I was worried the uber right bloc would get in. Lack of Tax reform from Labour lost a lot of people. I still want to see a Labour, Greens and Te Pati Maori Govt in power at the next election. I can only hope that many who voted this lot in now are feeling they didn't want what this Govt has been.
My feeling is that traditional Labour voters who are disillusioned with the current iteration will probably not vote rather than vote Green or TPM. And that will lead us to another term of the wreckers and haters.
Honestly that is a worry too. I truly can't get a feel for what many are thinking with all the echo bubbles everywhere. But I hear from people in general how unhappy they are with the current govt but many of these folks would have voted Labour or further left. I know of a few traditional Labour voters who voted for ACT but I know these folks bought him at face value talking point than what's underneath that nasty piece of work. I kinda feel like Tui has a good feel for what's happening in some other echo chambers.
Amy, I think DS is a treacherous, cunning wolf in sheep's clothing.
Definitely - he is incredibly dangerous!